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Eco Mode / Wiring


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#1 ability4all

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Posted 10 April 2008 - 12:56 AM

Car 2.0 hdi 90 03 est. Currently in a garage after calling out AA 4 times in two days - I thought I had ran out of fuel as guage low - put fuel in - nothing the car had gone into eco mode the AA coudn't get electric windows down to put on trailer - took to garage who bled the fuel system - they had my car running when I collected it 1 hr later - took it for fuel - 5 mins later I had to be bump started . Tried to start the following morning - nothing but clicks , not even turning over and back into eco mode . AA fitted a new starter motor - drove to work ok . At lunchtime went to get some stuff out of car - central locking did not work - back in eco mode and would not turn over - AA had to tow me from Preston back to Newcastle - the garage re coded the car , said something was draining the battery and fitted a new computer . 5 mins before I was due to collect the car they rang to say that when they tried to start the car it would go back into eco and not recognise the key. Now they say it is due to the multi wiring and that a problem with my gove box light may have caused the drain - 1 week later still in the garage. I use the car for work and have been told in no uncertain terms I must replace it - at worst I need the car to trade in as I have spent 1500 over the past two months on struts , sensors etc ( when I thought I had a turbo problem and it struggled to accelerate up hills and overtake !)

Anyone any ideas - it is actually in a Citroen specialist ( Re builds BX's etc. )
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#2 paul.h

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Posted 10 April 2008 - 11:52 AM

Symptoms seem to be of a low/poor battery or something causing a voltage drain but I would have thought the AA and garage would have checked this - when was the battery last replaced ? There have been reports here on eco mode, try a search, but I seem to remember some had something to do with mobile phones connected to the car.
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#3 Randombloke

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Posted 10 April 2008 - 05:08 PM

Symptoms seem to be of a low/poor battery or something causing a voltage drain but I would have thought the AA and garage would have checked this - when was the battery last replaced ? There have been reports here on eco mode, try a search, but I seem to remember some had something to do with mobile phones connected to the car.


Eco mode is shutting down the car because there is a device draining current when the engine is off.

I would love to know from the Citroen Techs why this would not work:

Disconnect the battery negative terminal and then re-connect it via an ammeter. (Do not switch ignition or or try to start car under any circumstances)

You should see the current being drawn by the rogue device.

Now remove and refit all the fuses one by one until the current drawn drops to zero, at that point you then have the fuse that is feeding the problem piece of kit in your hand.

If it is not essential to the running of the car, leave it out and refit the battery without the ammeter in series. If it is essential, a replacement will be needed.

As well as mobile phone interfaces, one of my favourite bad guys for this fault is the back battery in the alarm unit, which is normally trickle charged off the battery. When the back battery dies it then simply consumes too much current.

Another maybe the radio. Also interior lights as mentioned in boot or glove box.

If it is a faulty battery then there will be no slight spark when you reconnect the battery with the ignition off. If there is a current drain and the battery is ok then you might hear or see a small spark on battery reconnection.

The battery needs a full charge before restoring it to the car.


If iannez, kfk or BarbsC1 are about can they show me the problem with this logic?


Thanks.
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#4 BarbsC1

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Posted 10 April 2008 - 07:42 PM

Eco mode is shutting down the car because there is a device draining current when the engine is off.

I would love to know from the Citroen Techs why this would not work:

Disconnect the battery negative terminal and then re-connect it via an ammeter. (Do not switch ignition or or try to start car under any circumstances)

You should see the current being drawn by the rogue device.

Now remove and refit all the fuses one by one until the current drawn drops to zero, at that point you then have the fuse that is feeding the problem piece of kit in your hand.

If it is not essential to the running of the car, leave it out and refit the battery without the ammeter in series. If it is essential, a replacement will be needed.

As well as mobile phone interfaces, one of my favourite bad guys for this fault is the back battery in the alarm unit, which is normally trickle charged off the battery. When the back battery dies it then simply consumes too much current.

Another maybe the radio. Also interior lights as mentioned in boot or glove box.

If it is a faulty battery then there will be no slight spark when you reconnect the battery with the ignition off. If there is a current drain and the battery is ok then you might hear or see a small spark on battery reconnection.

The battery needs a full charge before restoring it to the car.


If iannez, kfk or BarbsC1 are about can they show me the problem with this logic?


Thanks.

Hubby totally agrees with your explanation of current draw diagnosis as it is the easiest and fastest way of finding what is causing the drain
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#5 Guest_Chilie_*

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Posted 14 April 2008 - 08:04 PM

I would love to know from the Citroen Techs why this would not work:


Im now having some battery drain issues of my own - I had a flat battery a couple of times when I bought the car and after checking the output from the alternator which was 13.5V i decided it must be the battery. Having replaced with a new one im now finding that after the car has been stood for 2 days there isnt enough power left to start the car - it opened the central locking ok and the hydraulic pump runs but its its not got enough to turn the engine fast enough to start it.

I have checked all the obvious things such as glove box lights and boot lights and these are going off. I have been switching the radio of manually but something is still draining. Im not getting any economode warnings so it must be very slight. I guess im going to try what you suggest im out of other ideas but your post seems to indicate that someone has told you this process wont work - I cant see anything wrong with it other than maybe the clock etc would drain on that fuse but I guess you just need to put that one in last??

You mention the alarm battery - does my 2.2HDI 2001 have one of these, sounds silly but i have never had the alarm go off so I dont know if theres a sounder - I know thers an immobilser but not sure about an alarm? Can anyone tell me where to look for it? Also does anyone have a list of whats on each fuse or a wiring diagram they could send me? One final thought its got some extra wiring near the battery which I assume is for the towbar. I have inspected it carefully and theres no bare wires or anything but could the tow bar electrics be a factor?

#6 Guest_Chilie_*

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Posted 15 April 2008 - 09:13 PM

Found some useful info for anyone trying to investigate a parasitic battery drain if your interested.

http://www.exide.com...asitic_load.pdf

Also

http://www.batteryfaq.org/

It generally seems to support your suggested methods Randombloke, possibly with the addition of a bulb in parallel to the ammeter in order to protect the meter from timed loads and peak loads whilst testing any switches or systems etc.

#7 paul.h

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Posted 16 April 2008 - 11:30 AM

To check if you have an alarm, lock the doors with the 'plipper' then unlock the driver's door using the key in the keyhole. Then open the door and the alarm will go off. Put the key in the ignition to stop the alarm or use plipper buttons. (Not sure if plipper is a correct term but sounds ok).
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#8 Guest_Chilie_*

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Posted 16 April 2008 - 06:15 PM

To check if you have an alarm, lock the doors with the 'plipper' then unlock the driver's door using the key in the keyhole. Then open the door and the alarm will go off. Put the key in the ignition to stop the alarm or use plipper buttons. (Not sure if plipper is a correct term but sounds ok).


Well looks like no alarm fitted - found another problem though :( , the car still thinks its in France the key in the drivers door doesent work the central locking, I had to use the passenger door lock. At least i know its not the alarm draining the battery. Im gonna try pulling fuses and an ammeter as soon as I get some time.

#9 iannez

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Posted 16 April 2008 - 10:15 PM

randomblokes advice is the best way to solve this problem but dont use a bulb. this will cause a drain on the battery and will stop the bsi going to sleep causing further battery drain and giving you a false reading. start of by opening the drivers door and leave it open then open the bonnet. let the car stand without opening or closing any doors for a couple of minutes before you disconnect the battery to make sure the bsi has gone to sleep. set your multimeter to amps. remove the live terminal and bridge between the live clamp and battery terminal with your multimeter. you should always have a small amount of battery drain so dont worry about it dropping to 0. now remove one fuse at a time untill it drops somewhere near zero. dont forget about the engine bay fuse box but dont bother with the maxi fuses as they power so many different things it will take you forever to find the component at fault. when it does drop leave the fuse out. reconnect the battery, start the car and check to see whats not working. you will probably get down to 3 or 4 components. now replace the fuse, and let the bsi shut down again and disconnect the battery. put your multimeter across the terminals and start unpluging the components that didnt work one at a time untill you loose the drain and you have found your fault. you say the ctrl locking will not work from the drivers door. it should work from both front door locks no matter what country its set up for so you have a fault with the drivers door mech. i would replace this before you do anything else. i have had a door mech fault which caused battery drain. the door does not lock with the others so the bsi keeps trying over and over to lock the door untill the battery goes flat. even in eco mode you still get battery drain. it only reduces it so if you leave something on when you go shopping for example it will start when you come out. if left over night the battery will be flat the following morning.
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#10 Guest_Chilie_*

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Posted 17 April 2008 - 11:49 AM

Many thanks Iannez for taking the time to explain this for me, I wasnt sure what a BSI was so I did some searching and found the attached link which is quite inetersting, the item relates to Purgeot BSI reboot process but interesting all the same.

Im going to have a try at this over the weekend all being well so I will let you know how it goes.

http://www.petercoop...t_procedure.htm

#11 Jonno

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Posted 17 April 2008 - 01:31 PM

Well looks like no alarm fitted - found another problem though :angry: , the car still thinks its in France the key in the drivers door doesent work the central locking, I had to use the passenger door lock.


When I had my 1.4 Xsara the central locking wouldn't work from the drivers door - it turned out to be a broken wire in the multiplug wiring to the drivers door. All I did was pull back the rubber boot from the plug to expose the wiring and solder in another cable between the broken ends. I believe there are complete plugs available from Citroen but can be a bit pricy at around 90 (so I have been told)
It also improved the efficiency of the electric window too - seemed as though it may have been earthing through other circuits??
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#12 Guest_Chilie_*

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Posted 17 April 2008 - 06:58 PM

Thanks for the tip - I will check it out , seems theres every chance it maybe the cause of the flat battery looks like its going to be a busy weekend!, Im getting good at removing these trim pannels, this will be the third one I have had to remove now - Front passenger door was because the latch was sticking and rear passenger door because the window wasnt going up and down, a little plastic bush that goes through the glass and holds it in place had falllen out.

I guess im going to need the skills of a contorsionist to sort this one though.

#13 Jonno

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Posted 17 April 2008 - 08:40 PM

Thanks for the tip - I will check it out , seems theres every chance it maybe the cause of the flat battery looks like its going to be a busy weekend!, Im getting good at removing these trim pannels, this will be the third one I have had to remove now - Front passenger door was because the latch was sticking and rear passenger door because the window wasnt going up and down, a little plastic bush that goes through the glass and holds it in place had falllen out.

I guess im going to need the skills of a contorsionist to sort this one though.


No need for the trim panel removal for the broken wire (if that is in fact the problem) as the broken wire usually occurs in the door jamb area where the cables run through from the cabin to the door itself. I suppose its because of continual opening/closing that causes the fatigue in the wiring harness in that area.
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#14 Guest_Chilie_*

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Posted 18 April 2008 - 04:23 PM

Well, I have spent the afternoon pulling fuses and trying to work this out, so far im not really much wiser.

I opened up the car and bonnet, wound the passenger window down shut the door and then left the car to stand so the systems could shut down. I wanted to have the door closed sothe interior light circuit wasnt a factor.

From what I have read the expected draw without load should be around 0.05 - 0.075Amps. My meter was reading 0.19 Amps so a little high maybe if the 0.05 is correct but im no expert so please let me know if this seems normal.

I progressively pulled each fuse one by one, including all the ones in the engine bay and the only fuses that had any impact were F11 - listed in the hadbook as Display - pulling this dropped the reading by .01 so not much difference. The only other fuse to make any impact was F10 - Listed as battery+. This dropped the reading to almost zero 0.01 - not sure where the 0.01 was going but still not really significant as its the battery fuse you would expect it to reduce to almost zero i guess and 0.01 isnt going to do any harm.

So im left wondering where i go next - only thing I can think is either 0.19A drain is normal and my battery is just duff even though its only 3 months old or somehow the drain isnt on any of the fuses but I can't see how?

I didnt have time to look at the door lock / wiring but I figured if this was a cause it would show on the fuse pulling activity.

Im now well and truly stumpped!

#15 Randombloke

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Posted 20 April 2008 - 09:22 AM

From what I have read the expected draw without load should be around 0.05 - 0.075Amps. My meter was reading 0.19 Amps so a little high maybe if the 0.05 is correct but im no expert so please let me know if this seems normal.


0.19 Amps seems rather high to me.

I progressively pulled each fuse one by one, including all the ones in the engine bay and the only fuses that had any impact were F11 - listed in the handbook as Display - pulling this dropped the reading by .01 so not much difference. The only other fuse to make any impact was F10 - Listed as battery+. This dropped the reading to almost zero 0.01 - not sure where the 0.01 was going but still not really significant as its the battery fuse you would expect it to reduce to almost zero i guess and 0.01 isnt going to do any harm.


Please can you tell us exactly which model you have. I'm looking at the RTA manual for 2.0/2.2 HDi up to 04.

In the glove box, F10 is the +ve feed for the caravan battery. F11 is the feed for number of engine and gearbox ECUs. In the engine bay F10 is for the right dipped beam, and F11 for left hand indicators.

F24 in the glove box does screen/display.

If F10 really is for a feed to a caravan battery, then it begs the question that you should leave F10 out and reconnect the battery and see if the car will start.
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#16 Guest_Chilie_*

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Posted 20 April 2008 - 12:00 PM

Cheers Random bloke

Model is a 2001 2.2 HDI Turbo, I was going from what the handbook said the fuses were for but to be honest the explaination isnt that great. They were the glove box fuses not the engine bay ones that had the effect.

The towbar electrics are obviously an after market affair so i guess they could be suspect. There is some wiring directly from the battery which I assume is for the towbar which has its own line fuse in the engine bay but this didnt have any effect when removed it.

I will try pulling the suspect fuse and see if anything else stops working.

Many thanks for your help

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Posted 21 April 2008 - 06:32 PM

Well guys without wanting to put the kiss of death on it im hopefull we have collectively fixed my car.

I removed the fuse with the drain and the car seemingly works fine without it. I cant find anything that doesent work so im going to run it for the rest of the week and then leave it to stand over the weekend without use. If it starts next Monday then I think the problem is fixed or at least no longer a problem.

I think I may give my local Main Dealer a call to see if they can give me any more info on that fuse as well.

Thanks for all the help.

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Posted 22 April 2008 - 07:46 PM

Maybe i spoke too soon - My main dealer has told me that the fuse powers not only the tow bar electrics (not sure what exactly) but also the Diesel additive pump!

Im happy to live without the towbar electrics as I have no need for them but obviously the DPF isnt going to last long if theres no additive going into the fuel. Im trying to verify this against some wiring diagrams that I have kindly been provided with but its proving a little tricky.

#19 Randombloke

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Posted 22 April 2008 - 09:05 PM

Maybe i spoke too soon - My main dealer has told me that the fuse powers not only the tow bar electrics (not sure what exactly) but also the Diesel additive pump!


I think he has confused the BM34 and BSI1 boxes as my diagrams show the DPF injector fed from F10 in the glove box whereas the +ve for the caravan battery comes from the F10 in the engine bay.

To complicate things further, circuit diagrams are different depending on whether the car is up to OPR 8941 or post that number, and auto/manual is another factor.

Citroen techs opinions please. I'm just an 'Erbert with a French manual and limited but usable French.
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#20 Guest_Chilie_*

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Posted 22 April 2008 - 09:16 PM

Its the F10 glove box fuse thats giving me the problem so if thats the diesel additive pump i can try disconnecting the electrics for this.... i think. The dealer told me that the pump is located under the back seat and is accessible by removing the cover under the seat so I guess I just need to reinsert the fuse and disconnect the pump and retest the drain. I had a quick look but there were quite a few bits of cable so I will need to study it more carefully this weekend and have another go.