Jump to content


If this site has saved you money please feel free to donate a little of the saving


Great value Unlimited Broadband from an award winning provider


Photo

C8, 2003, 2.0 16V Petrol, Zero Power, No Faults, As Good As Dead


  • Please log in to reply
15 replies to this topic

#1 stereotypical

stereotypical

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 76 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 19 August 2019 - 09:31 AM

Hi guys,

 

Its me again, been a while. Well my C8 now is about to die i reckon. Was about to sell it off, had to do an inspection was lining up for about 2 hours in the heat, then it decided to show anti pollution fault, engine check light came up, complete loss of power, and when i mean loss of power it means it couldn't even go more than 10km per hour, engine vibrating massively, RPM was hardly going up not even more than 1500 RPMs, engine was super hot as well and as it got hotter, i tried to drive it down to the nearest garage, but it kinda lost all power to a point it couldn't even go up a little hump on the road. 

 

Towed it to my regular shop he couldn't figure it out, his computer showed some errors p0341 and p0410, cam phase sensor, O2 sensor errors, which i had for a very long time ago which shouldn't be the cause. 

 

Replaced my cam phase sensor and crank shaft sensor and still no change. Then towed it to a so called citroen specialist and he checked a few things like the intake manifold and checked through his computer and the same error still shows after replacing the cam phase sensor from the other shop.  He went on to erase those errors and now there's no faults appearing, and he says it could be mechanical or wiring but he wants me to pay him over a grand to just pinpoint the problem, not including repair labour and etc which i think is a rip off, so im towing it back to my guy again and ask him to look at things piece by piece but im kinda lost of ideas and am tired of towing it to so called citroen specialists that actually don't have a clue what they're doing. 

 

So i've listed some possible causes from the other FB group that i've been asking:

 

1. Vacuum leak like a big one

2. MAF sensor dead

3. Exhaust Cat is blocked ( i have a suspicion this could be it) 

4. Cracked manifold ( but current specialist said it isnt')

5. Wiring loom corroded wires

6. Water in fuel tank. 

7. Blocked exhaust valves?

 

Here's a video of how the engine sounds

<iframe src="https://player.vimeo.com/video/354616990" width="640" height="564" frameborder="0" allow="autoplay; fullscreen" allowfullscreen></iframe>
<iframe src="https://player.vimeo.com/video/354616990" width="640" height="564" frameborder="0" allow="autoplay; fullscreen" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Attached is also the picture of all the errors which has been deleted and now there no more errors but no improvements on the engine. I couldn't hook my lexia up cuz my laptops battery is old and keeps dying on me, so need a few more days to source a new battery and get it hooked up.

 

Someone was telling me to look at the live data.

 

Has anyone had this same issue before here? Im a bit pissed this happened after the day someone agreed to buy it off me. 

 

 

thx guys

Attached Files


Edited by stereotypical, 19 August 2019 - 09:35 AM.

  • 0

#2 paul.h

paul.h

    Moderator

  • Validating
  • PipPipPip
  • 6,885 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 19 August 2019 - 10:40 AM

The engine sounds rattly, was it like that before the fault ?

Can you use your lap top with it plugged in to the mains so no need to wait until you get another battery ?

 

Lack of power could be misfiring, for this you could check the wiring, spark plugs - if you remove them a cylinder that is misfiring is likely to have a carbon covered plug from the petrol not burning, the coil pack (which on some Citroens also checks the cam phase), an injector fault, head gasket fault (a compression test would confirm this as well as valve problems), the air filter for blockage, air flow meter, air leak - there sounds to be something from the video when it was revved, exhaust back pressure too high - you could try disconnecting it but there was a topic on here a while back where it was blocked. Others can include a cam belt fault - was it replaced following service schedules, valve problems. Some of these would be expected to give a fault code.

 

Does the engine fan cut in since you mentioned it was getting hot, often this happens about 96°C on some of the Citroens we've had ?

 

A Relay that had similar problems but gave out black smoke (a diesel) was caused by a broken rocker and that had a blowing noise. http://www.citroen-o...-broken-rocker/



#3 stereotypical

stereotypical

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 76 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 19 August 2019 - 01:42 PM

The engine sounds rattly, was it like that before the fault ?

Can you use your lap top with it plugged in to the mains so no need to wait until you get another battery ?

 

Lack of power could be misfiring, for this you could check the wiring, spark plugs - if you remove them a cylinder that is misfiring is likely to have a carbon covered plug from the petrol not burning, the coil pack (which on some Citroens also checks the cam phase), an injector fault, head gasket fault (a compression test would confirm this as well as valve problems), the air filter for blockage, air flow meter, air leak - there sounds to be something from the video when it was revved, exhaust back pressure too high - you could try disconnecting it but there was a topic on here a while back where it was blocked. Others can include a cam belt fault - was it replaced following service schedules, valve problems. Some of these would be expected to give a fault code.

 

Does the engine fan cut in since you mentioned it was getting hot, often this happens about 96°C on some of the Citroens we've had ?

 

A Relay that had similar problems but gave out black smoke (a diesel) was caused by a broken rocker and that had a blowing noise. http://www.citroen-o...-broken-rocker/

thanks for the reply Paul.

 

Yeap engine doesnt sound like that before the fault, its almost like something is stuck in side. 

I've had new spark plugs, throttle body, and coil pack already so im doubting those are the causes, but will still get it checked anyways. 

 

Looks like its gonna be a long way before it gets to running again, gonna try to hook my laptop with lexia on it maybe drag a power point to it tomorrow. Hopefully it shows something. As the current specialist who is asking me 1 grand just to diagnose isn't even using a lexia reader which i find really annoying, so planning to tow it back to my regular mechanic whom i trust even though he's not a citroen expert. 

 

Can a broken rocker cover cause such substantial power loss though? Im just thinking of what can cause the car to completely have no power, and as it gets hotter it gets weaker. Max speed is 15kmh per hour, rpm doesnt even go up to 1500 rpm even on neutral it cant even go up a road hump. 

 

I've had misfires before and manage to drive the car with one less cylinder and it still had some power in it, and its not in limp mode as well as i can change the gears when i switch to manual settings. 

 

All air filter has been removed too, so theres no restrictions there. If its a faulty MAF it may not measure correctly but there still should be some power coming in with misfires, but i doubt it can cause zero power and no faults. 

 

So only hope is 2morrow im hooking it up to lexia then see if theres any faults, otherwise its gonna be a long long next few weeks. 

 

Sigh............


  • 0

#4 stereotypical

stereotypical

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 76 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 19 August 2019 - 02:17 PM

i really think i have a clogged catalyst, the rpms are not going up and no power at all, gonna look at that tomorrow as well. 


  • 0

#5 paul.h

paul.h

    Moderator

  • Validating
  • PipPipPip
  • 6,885 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 19 August 2019 - 08:16 PM

Was the timing belt replaced in the past ? The C8 is known for belt failures caused by rain dripping on to it. If the timing is out due to a belt fault that might cause it to run hot but if a camshaft is not timed up properly then a valve might hit a piston causing damage.

 

Hopefully the Lexia will show something. When a fault code is generated live freeze frame data should be stored by the car which can be used to see what happened when the code was given. However, this data is lost when the code is deleted. If it does not give any clue as to the fault I would be tempted to check the timing belt and do a compression test to see if there is any valve damage.



#6 stereotypical

stereotypical

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 76 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 20 August 2019 - 03:49 AM

Was the timing belt replaced in the past ? The C8 is known for belt failures caused by rain dripping on to it. If the timing is out due to a belt fault that might cause it to run hot but if a camshaft is not timed up properly then a valve might hit a piston causing damage.

 

Hopefully the Lexia will show something. When a fault code is generated live freeze frame data should be stored by the car which can be used to see what happened when the code was given. However, this data is lost when the code is deleted. If it does not give any clue as to the fault I would be tempted to check the timing belt and do a compression test to see if there is any valve damage.

cambelts were changed no less then 2 yrs ago, since then i think i've only driven the car no more than 20k kilometres since. We checked the belt settings looks ok. 

 

I hooked lexia up this morning found a lot of errors and erased it. then restarted again, and this error popped up. 

 

p0341, phase sensor permanent fault. 

I've replaced the phase sensor already but it looks like it could be the wiring that is causing the error? 

No other error appears. 

Attached Files


  • 0

#7 paul.h

paul.h

    Moderator

  • Validating
  • PipPipPip
  • 6,885 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 20 August 2019 - 10:22 AM

The mixture adjustment state is probably since the engine has not warmed up enough and the exhaust lambda sensor has not warmed up enough. See if this clears when the engine is at normal temperature.

 

Was the new cam sensor from a Citroen dealer or a copy part, just asking since sometimes copy parts do not always work as well ? You could always do a check by disconnecting it and seeing if the fault code changes, that would at least narrow it down to the sensor or maybe its wiring. We had an inlet cam sensor fail on a C3 and that came up with P0341, P0342, P0343 range/low/high. Until fixed, at first it would not run but after a few goes it did in limp mode but that car had sensors on both cam shafts as well as the crankshaft so still got its rpm info to be able to run. I checked the faulty sensor resistance across all 3 pins and across 2 it was different to the new one and the good one on the other sensor. A new sensor from Citroen fixed it.



#8 stereotypical

stereotypical

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 76 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 20 August 2019 - 02:11 PM

The mixture adjustment state is probably since the engine has not warmed up enough and the exhaust lambda sensor has not warmed up enough. See if this clears when the engine is at normal temperature.

 

Was the new cam sensor from a Citroen dealer or a copy part, just asking since sometimes copy parts do not always work as well ? You could always do a check by disconnecting it and seeing if the fault code changes, that would at least narrow it down to the sensor or maybe its wiring. We had an inlet cam sensor fail on a C3 and that came up with P0341, P0342, P0343 range/low/high. Until fixed, at first it would not run but after a few goes it did in limp mode but that car had sensors on both cam shafts as well as the crankshaft so still got its rpm info to be able to run. I checked the faulty sensor resistance across all 3 pins and across 2 it was different to the new one and the good one on the other sensor. A new sensor from Citroen fixed it.

 

To be honest the engine was struggling a lot to stay on i couldn't get it to warm up properly it was dying off after 1-2 mins, it wouldn't even move and massive vibrations from the engine almost like misfiring on all four cylinders. 

 

I've got other live data that i found as well while it was switched on. I'll try removing the Cam sensor tomorrow and see if it throws any other error as well. 

Attached Files


  • 0

#9 stereotypical

stereotypical

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 76 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 06 September 2019 - 05:27 AM

update, the mechanic pinpointed to the ECU not firing properly, after removing the camphase sensor other errors popping up as well like EGR, and all cylinders misfiring. 

 

He wants to make a clone ecu and replace it back and thinks this should sort the issues out. What do you guys think?


  • 0

#10 paul.h

paul.h

    Moderator

  • Validating
  • PipPipPip
  • 6,885 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 06 September 2019 - 10:22 AM

If it is a faulty ecu there are companies that can check and repair them for a few £100. First you could check its connections are all good if not already done. I do not know what a clone ecu is though unless it is going to be yours with parts from another one. If you try one from another car you would also need to change other parts since it would not recognise the immobiliser chip in the keys and the radio.

 

If it was my car I would not know what to do other than take it to a Citroen dealer but would have to consider its value against the cost of repair, particularly since you are wanting to sell it. I would still like to do a compression test since it is easily done by removing the spark plugs.



#11 stereotypical

stereotypical

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 76 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 07 September 2019 - 05:15 AM

If it is a faulty ecu there are companies that can check and repair them for a few £100. First you could check its connections are all good if not already done. I do not know what a clone ecu is though unless it is going to be yours with parts from another one. If you try one from another car you would also need to change other parts since it would not recognise the immobiliser chip in the keys and the radio.

 

If it was my car I would not know what to do other than take it to a Citroen dealer but would have to consider its value against the cost of repair, particularly since you are wanting to sell it. I would still like to do a compression test since it is easily done by removing the spark plugs.

yeap thanks paul, unfortunately im not based in the UK, so getting one from over seems like the best option. A clone ECU is basically they will copy all the existing data in my current ecu and then put that in an empty new ECU. Right now i'm lacking choices already i've asked him to recheck the camphase sensor by doing a similar test like this here https://www.youtube....h?v=fTu5Lej-EUY

 

if it turns out alright then im probably going with cloning a new ECU and fingers crossed it works. Taking it to a citroen dealer is out of the question it would probably cost more then the car itself lol

 

Will ask him to check the compression as well. 

 

Thanks paul will update back


  • 0

#12 stereotypical

stereotypical

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 76 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 08 October 2019 - 04:46 AM

so after almost a mth at the shop, my mechanic couldn't get it to run still. He tried cloning my current ECU into a donor ECU and it still was doing the same things. Tried it twice with two other donors still didn't work. 

 

He double checked all the wiring issues, camphase sensor and timing belt, injection, sparks, compression all seem fine.

 

Can a corrupted software in the ECU cause this sort of thing? Im tempted to get a full set with a bsi and etc from a breaker if a corrupted data in the ECU can cause this sort of thing? 

 

running out of ideas .........


  • 0

#13 paul.h

paul.h

    Moderator

  • Validating
  • PipPipPip
  • 6,885 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 08 October 2019 - 10:07 AM

Before going for another ecu I would be thinking of things like the coil pack and the throttle body since your first diagnostic showed problems with this.

 

When was the fuel filter last changed ? If it has one and this is blocked it would restrict the amount of fuel getting through. Does it run better if something like easy start is squirted in ?



#14 stereotypical

stereotypical

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 76 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 13 October 2019 - 08:06 AM

Before going for another ecu I would be thinking of things like the coil pack and the throttle body since your first diagnostic showed problems with this.

 

When was the fuel filter last changed ? If it has one and this is blocked it would restrict the amount of fuel getting through. Does it run better if something like easy start is squirted in ?

coil pack is new so is the throttle body, think its only roughly about a year old, could it fail so prematurely?  havent changed the fuel filter yet, but can it cause the car to completely have no power at all, the rpm's isn't going above 1.5k rpms its not even revving up. 

 

When i mean no power i mean it can't even go a few meters now........timing belts have been checked as well all seems to be good.

 

there is fuel going into the system and its eating up the fuel pretty quickly but not burning it .........

 

i still think its a blocked cat converter but my mechanic says even if its blocked it still should be able to rev higher then 1.5k rpm but it isnt.......


  • 0

#15 paul.h

paul.h

    Moderator

  • Validating
  • PipPipPip
  • 6,885 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 13 October 2019 - 11:43 AM

If a fuel filter is blocked it will limit how much fuel can get through and hence the rpm. An internet search on blocked fuel filter will list symptoms. To check the cat disconnecting the exhaust might eliminate that.



#16 stereotypical

stereotypical

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 76 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 14 October 2019 - 11:37 PM

If a fuel filter is blocked it will limit how much fuel can get through and hence the rpm. An internet search on blocked fuel filter will list symptoms. To check the cat disconnecting the exhaust might eliminate that.

fuel filter checked, theres enough fuel going into the engine, the car starts fine as well, just that when it starts its not revving up above 1.5k rpm  but the engine doesn't die out until after a good 5-10 mins or so..........and the fuel gets used up pretty quickly as i see the fuel gauge going down after a while............ will be checking the cat soon...........if that doesnt work either i guess i'll just burn it to the grown :P


  • 0




Ford Galaxy Owner Club