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3.0Psi F1C 3L Coolant Problems

3.0psy relay 3.0l coolant issues

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#1 pikesrelaybus

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Posted 08 March 2019 - 12:31 PM

Hi Guys,

at 150k we're starting to get regular problems (more money out!). So, today, bowling along the motorway and MIL lamp comes on, MF display said something about excessive coolant, stop and check. I did just that, coolant level was fine, between min/max but it's black!. So, I'm thinking head gasket right?. Hmm, so I checked to see if there's excessive pressure on the expansion tank, nothing really say's I'm over pressured. I keep an eye on the coolant level while I continue to drive. It's normally sat on the next mark down from half way and other than warming up it's usually sat there, but as I'm driving it's going as high as mid way (never gone that high before) and then back to my normal tick mark. If I idle or reduce load of course I can get it to go lower, likewise if I crank up the cabin space heat with the window down.  So, no cream on oil filler, no excessive pressure in expansion tank but the coolant is black. Could it be the recent EGR valve replacement, that would contaminate the coolant with exhaust gases being transferred when the EGR valve is open?? I've not lost any coolant but the mere fact it's been disturbed might be a problem.

 

Of course, to complicate matters, I recently bought a diagnostics tester, looking at the many values this thing can chuck out I've got a huge amount (than normal that is) of errors, CAN bus errors all sorts. I also noticed looking at the injector readings that 1&4 seem positive whereas 2&3 give negative readings. This diagnostics thing is quite new to me but it did seem strange, they are not huge values, maybe +/- 2-3 (I believe I was looking at injection volume rather than timings). So, another trip to the garage but you think there's a cheap solution, maybe a gas in coolant tester maybe or specific values on my tester that might hone my nose to the problem...

regards


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#2 paul.h

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Posted 09 March 2019 - 09:03 PM

You could check the coolant temperature with your diagnostic tester. Should be around 90 to 96°C if the thermostat and cooling fan are working once the engine has warmed up. Much more and the thermostat could be stuck closed or the fan has not come on. You could also see when the radiator top hose starts to warm up showing the thermostat has started to open to see how this compares with the coolant temperature sensor and this should be around 90°C and also the dash temperature guage. Also look to see if bubbles appear in the coolant tank which might suggest a head gasket problem.



#3 pikesrelaybus

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Posted 10 March 2019 - 10:57 PM

Just to add something, took it for a drive today, about 30 miles. I noticed the temp gauge isn't settled, course the old derv motor only generates heat under load, so up a hill generally gets the gauge to go up beyond it's normal position but then just as it gets to 1/2 way and still under load it'll drop back to the next tick down. If I reduce load to 0% down hill the coolant drops in temp down to the 1/4, never done that before. I've managed to get it to drop but not in such a short length of road, so I too think it's time the thermostat is renewed, has done 150k miles. The curve ball is the black coolant, I haven't lost any coolant since the M'way three days ago when the over-temp warning and MIL lamp came on. Also, when it came on, I stopped straight away to check the level and done what we're all warned against and undid the expansion tank filler. I'd say for a hot engine there didn't seem to be much pressure. So, if I'm not loosing coolant but it's turned black, there isn't a big build up of pressure associated with a head gasket then what could it be??

 

I have to say mind, it does seem to be difficult to start 1st thing, I sense this probably before it makes a full revolution and switch back off to have a second attempt, it then turns over what I'd call normally. If it's not coolant then it would be oil?, then I'd see smoke right.. No smoke, clean burn.. Bit flummacks if I'm honest.. I'm assuming the head gasket can be done with engine in situ, what sort of man hours would I expect? I think if the garage had it I'd expect them to use a tester to snort exhaust gases in the coolant, I have changed the EGR valve and that whole blinking assembly is coolant cooled, post repair I checked the level regular and it seemed the repair was good. I'll do a few more tests, be interesting to get to the bottom of this issue..


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#4 paul.h

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Posted 11 March 2019 - 01:04 PM

If the coolant was not black you would think it is the thermostat at fault. When you next use the bus, do it with the diagnostic tool plugged in and watch the coolant temperature to see if it is giving normal values and any changes are gradual rather than sudden. Sudden ones might be a temp sensor problem, more gradual ones where it changes temp might be the thermostat ( I had this once on a Saab after fitting a new thermostat which was faulty and on a motorway the temp gauge would drop), other changes could be a head gasket where the temp sensor suddenly is in vapour rather than liquid.

 

We had a 2003 C3 petrol that on 2 occasions a year apart on the M62 in winter suddenly went to max temp on the gauge. Both times I could find no faults and watching the temperature on a code reader showed everything to be normal - sensor, gauge, thermostat opening temp, engine fan running. Later I had replaced the timing belt, water pump and thermostat and it never happened again. I just put it down to an electrical glitch. We also had a 2010 petrol C3 and that did similar but it then had a recall from Citroen due to a faulty batch of temp sensors.

 

Some Citroen thermostats are part of the coolant housing at the end of the cylinder head so can be expensive. Yours might be part 1366AA plus gasket 134093 and a quick look on ebay suggests it could be around £80. The temp sensor might be 1338F9.

 

Difficult starting, might be the cold weather, battery voltage down a bit so not turning over as fast. You could give the glow plugs longer to warm up before turning the engine over.

 

When I've had head gaskets fail it has been obvious, such as steam from the exhaust, coolant leaking out of the head gasket down the engine, oil in the coolant tank, loss of coolant, misfiring when failed between 2 cylinders. All these have been on petrol engines so soot would not get in to the coolant and turn it black. 

 

On the Citroen service box it gives 13.4 hours to change the head gasket so it must be a big job. If having to pay at a Citroen dealer it would make the job probably around £1500.






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